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	<title>Comments on: Long-Term Test: 4e D&amp;D, Part Two</title>
	<atom:link href="http://greywulf.net/2009/11/long-term-test-4e-dd-part-two/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://greywulf.net/2009/11/long-term-test-4e-dd-part-two/</link>
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		<title>By: drow</title>
		<link>http://greywulf.net/2009/11/long-term-test-4e-dd-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-3454</link>
		<dc:creator>drow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:57:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.microlite20.net/?p=7470#comment-3454</guid>
		<description>of course it changes the game, its a new edition.  just like 3e changed the core races and classes from what came before.  (assassin is a prestige class now?  laaaaaaame.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>of course it changes the game, its a new edition.  just like 3e changed the core races and classes from what came before.  (assassin is a prestige class now?  laaaaaaame.)</p>
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		<title>By: Rob McDougall</title>
		<link>http://greywulf.net/2009/11/long-term-test-4e-dd-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-3453</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob McDougall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:48:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.microlite20.net/?p=7470#comment-3453</guid>
		<description>@John Magnum - Prepare to be surprised.  We&#039;re actually running 3.0 from just the basic 3 books.  But the players are min-maxers who decided that 1/2 orc barbarians with one level of ranger added in (for double weapon proficiency) was a good idea.  What 3.x base races and classes weren&#039;t included in 4e until PHB2?  1/2 orcs and barbarians.

While I love the new 4e mechanics (and the effort that went into creating a balanced game) I&#039;m a little annoyed that they chose to hold back what was formerly core content until a 2nd book while they introduced new content in the 1st book.  It changes what I consider to be the &quot;basic&quot; version of the game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@John Magnum &#8211; Prepare to be surprised.  We&#8217;re actually running 3.0 from just the basic 3 books.  But the players are min-maxers who decided that 1/2 orc barbarians with one level of ranger added in (for double weapon proficiency) was a good idea.  What 3.x base races and classes weren&#8217;t included in 4e until PHB2?  1/2 orcs and barbarians.</p>
<p>While I love the new 4e mechanics (and the effort that went into creating a balanced game) I&#8217;m a little annoyed that they chose to hold back what was formerly core content until a 2nd book while they introduced new content in the 1st book.  It changes what I consider to be the &#8220;basic&#8221; version of the game.</p>
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		<title>By: John Magnum</title>
		<link>http://greywulf.net/2009/11/long-term-test-4e-dd-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-3452</link>
		<dc:creator>John Magnum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 18:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.microlite20.net/?p=7470#comment-3452</guid>
		<description>@The guy who had to wait for PHB2 and Primal Power to come out before he could run his 4e campaign, and complained that he needed a bunch of supplements to run it unscathed:

That&#039;s probably because your 3.5 campaign was really bloated with supplements too. If you told me that your group wasn&#039;t using PHB2 material, Complete Warrior/Adventurer, or some other supplement, I&#039;d be very surprised.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@The guy who had to wait for PHB2 and Primal Power to come out before he could run his 4e campaign, and complained that he needed a bunch of supplements to run it unscathed:</p>
<p>That&#8217;s probably because your 3.5 campaign was really bloated with supplements too. If you told me that your group wasn&#8217;t using PHB2 material, Complete Warrior/Adventurer, or some other supplement, I&#8217;d be very surprised.</p>
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		<title>By: Hymn Collections for the Week of 11/8 &#171; The Spirits of Eden</title>
		<link>http://greywulf.net/2009/11/long-term-test-4e-dd-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-3451</link>
		<dc:creator>Hymn Collections for the Week of 11/8 &#171; The Spirits of Eden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 17:24:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.microlite20.net/?p=7470#comment-3451</guid>
		<description>[...] is a damn tease.  His second part of the Long Term Look at 4e talks about the superficial intentions of the game as well as some [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is a damn tease.  His second part of the Long Term Look at 4e talks about the superficial intentions of the game as well as some [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Wyatt</title>
		<link>http://greywulf.net/2009/11/long-term-test-4e-dd-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-3450</link>
		<dc:creator>Wyatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:53:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.microlite20.net/?p=7470#comment-3450</guid>
		<description>You damn tease!

Good post by the way. I agree, I&#039;ve found roleplaying and character concepts much facilitated by 4e, and I also agree that it&#039;s much easier to &quot;hack&quot; as it were...hell just look at my blog, pretty much all I do with my time there is brew. With 3.5 you had many models with which to make new spells, monsters, feats and PrCs, but it was time-consuming and horrendously difficult even if you knew the balance point...which many times didn&#039;t exist.
.-= Wyatt&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://spiritsofeden.wordpress.com/2009/11/10/monsters-of-eden-antagonists/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Monsters of Eden: Antagonists&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You damn tease!</p>
<p>Good post by the way. I agree, I&#8217;ve found roleplaying and character concepts much facilitated by 4e, and I also agree that it&#8217;s much easier to &#8220;hack&#8221; as it were&#8230;hell just look at my blog, pretty much all I do with my time there is brew. With 3.5 you had many models with which to make new spells, monsters, feats and PrCs, but it was time-consuming and horrendously difficult even if you knew the balance point&#8230;which many times didn&#8217;t exist.<br />
<span class="cluv"> Wyatt&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://spiritsofeden.wordpress.com/2009/11/10/monsters-of-eden-antagonists/" rel="nofollow">Monsters of Eden: Antagonists</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://greywulf.net/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: sverbridge</title>
		<link>http://greywulf.net/2009/11/long-term-test-4e-dd-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-3449</link>
		<dc:creator>sverbridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.microlite20.net/?p=7470#comment-3449</guid>
		<description>As a player I loved 3x, but as a GM it was my worst nightmare.  When 4e came out, I ended my 3.5 campaign, got a bunch of new players and started again.  We have had a lot of fun.  Something that has not happened, for me at least, in a very long time since I usually only DM.

I figure our group is a part of the quiet majority that just gets on with the game and plays.  I never seem to have an issue finding players to join our group.  A few in our group are players who never played any pen and paper RPG, but played computer RPGs.  So I think 4e has done a decent job of attracting those players to their game.

I&#039;ve really enjoyed the online content and think this is one of the best things WotC has done to promote their game.

I can definitely see the yearly addition of a new PHB, DMG, and MM heading towards the bloat that happened to 3.x  but there is absolutely no reason as to why I have to buy these books.  So far the two sets of books that have come out have been really good.  But since a person signing on to DDI gets insider info on the upcoming books being released I can easily make up my mind on whether to buy or pass on any book that comes out.

I look forward to reading the article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a player I loved 3x, but as a GM it was my worst nightmare.  When 4e came out, I ended my 3.5 campaign, got a bunch of new players and started again.  We have had a lot of fun.  Something that has not happened, for me at least, in a very long time since I usually only DM.</p>
<p>I figure our group is a part of the quiet majority that just gets on with the game and plays.  I never seem to have an issue finding players to join our group.  A few in our group are players who never played any pen and paper RPG, but played computer RPGs.  So I think 4e has done a decent job of attracting those players to their game.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve really enjoyed the online content and think this is one of the best things WotC has done to promote their game.</p>
<p>I can definitely see the yearly addition of a new PHB, DMG, and MM heading towards the bloat that happened to 3.x  but there is absolutely no reason as to why I have to buy these books.  So far the two sets of books that have come out have been really good.  But since a person signing on to DDI gets insider info on the upcoming books being released I can easily make up my mind on whether to buy or pass on any book that comes out.</p>
<p>I look forward to reading the article.</p>
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		<title>By: Buccaneers Guild</title>
		<link>http://greywulf.net/2009/11/long-term-test-4e-dd-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-3448</link>
		<dc:creator>Buccaneers Guild</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:57:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.microlite20.net/?p=7470#comment-3448</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;..quietly get on with the game and play&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Perhaps we should have a day where all those that do appreciate 4e have a bit of a shout about it. 4e appreciation day!
.-= Buccaneers Guild&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://buccaneersguild.com/coffeebreak-cartography-3/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Coffeebreak Cartography #3&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;..quietly get on with the game and play&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Perhaps we should have a day where all those that do appreciate 4e have a bit of a shout about it. 4e appreciation day!<br />
<span class="cluv"> Buccaneers Guild&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://buccaneersguild.com/coffeebreak-cartography-3/" rel="nofollow">Coffeebreak Cartography #3</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://greywulf.net/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: kaeosdad</title>
		<link>http://greywulf.net/2009/11/long-term-test-4e-dd-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-3447</link>
		<dc:creator>kaeosdad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 05:08:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.microlite20.net/?p=7470#comment-3447</guid>
		<description>about costs, 1 simple answer: dndinsider.com. You can even split the costs between 5 friends(you can d/l the program updates up to 5 times/month).

In the optimal situation a group of 5 purchases the core books then uses the ddi content and programs to run their games. It&#039;s very cost effective IMO even if the costs are only split with 1 other friend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>about costs, 1 simple answer: dndinsider.com. You can even split the costs between 5 friends(you can d/l the program updates up to 5 times/month).</p>
<p>In the optimal situation a group of 5 purchases the core books then uses the ddi content and programs to run their games. It&#8217;s very cost effective IMO even if the costs are only split with 1 other friend.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob McDougall</title>
		<link>http://greywulf.net/2009/11/long-term-test-4e-dd-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-3446</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob McDougall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 02:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.microlite20.net/?p=7470#comment-3446</guid>
		<description>Maximizing profits by diluting the value proposition to your customers is a long term recipe for failure.  It&#039;s prioritizing your interests over the customer&#039;s.  Eventually someone will present a more compelling value proposition and steal your customers away.

I believe that&#039;s why 4E&#039;s success is (as far as I can see) less than 3E.  It is encountering more competition from products like Pathfinder which offer a better value proposition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maximizing profits by diluting the value proposition to your customers is a long term recipe for failure.  It&#8217;s prioritizing your interests over the customer&#8217;s.  Eventually someone will present a more compelling value proposition and steal your customers away.</p>
<p>I believe that&#8217;s why 4E&#8217;s success is (as far as I can see) less than 3E.  It is encountering more competition from products like Pathfinder which offer a better value proposition.</p>
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		<title>By: drow</title>
		<link>http://greywulf.net/2009/11/long-term-test-4e-dd-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-3445</link>
		<dc:creator>drow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.microlite20.net/?p=7470#comment-3445</guid>
		<description>there&#039;s are several words for companies which fail to maximize profits.  &quot;dead&quot; is one.  &quot;merged&quot; is another.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>there&#8217;s are several words for companies which fail to maximize profits.  &#8220;dead&#8221; is one.  &#8220;merged&#8221; is another.</p>
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