Why 4e D&D is old school
There’s a lot of talk about 4e D&D being influenced by video games, and there’s little doubting that’s true. But I’m here to tell you that’s a good thing, and it makes 4e D&D more old school, not less. Here’s why.
All those video games, from Final Fantasy through World of Warcraft and beyond, have one thing in common. They’re all about generating characters who’s main aim in life is to kill creatures and take their stuff. That’s old school at the core, right there. What they do though is add several additional layers to the mix. The first and most obvious alteration is the big flashy graphics. Fantasy-inspired video games don’t do subtle effects where a big orange explosion will suffice. Some of that has carried through to the flavour text in 4e D&D’s Powers, but that doesn’t have to be how you play the game. Even Lance of Faith from the much-maligned laser Cleric could have a less flashy rationale in your game-world. It could be a direct stab of conscience that grips the heart of the target, or something more directly linked to your patron deity. The Lance of Faith from a Cleric of the Raven Queen could leave the target feeling like someone has literally walked over their grave.
In short, the game is as flashy as you want it to be; the effect of the Power remains the same. That opens up a whole range of old school potential. Want your Wizard to be an conjurer, illusionist or elementalist? Just describe your Powers in those terms, and you’re there.
The other thing that video games bring is multi-player support, and that’s carried across to 4e D&D with classes such as the Warlord and Powers that explicitly encourage tactical co-operative play. Add in the Skill Challenge mechanism that downright enforces every player to get involved, and you’ve got a version of D&D where teamwork is a central tenet. That’s not old school in itself – heck, in those days it was every man for himself – but it does help to bring back some of that old-style flavour. For example, in a recent short session I ran, the players had to climb up a 30′ statue to retrieve a ruby from it’s eye socket. Yeh, that scene.
Had I run this in 3e D&D, the action would have gone something like this: Rogue makes a Climb check. Rogue makes a Strength check to prize out the ruby. Rogue makes another Climb check. The rest of the party sit at the base and twiddle their thumbs.
In 4e, I ran it as a Skill Challenge. Haile (Eladrin Wizard) made a History check to identify the statue’s design and a Perception check to pinpoint a weak spot. Fomor (Human Ranger) made a Dex check to fire a tethered arrow, Fenugreek (Human Rogue) made his Climb roll while Osgrith (Orc Fighter) made an Athletics check to hold the rope taught. Dude, it was so old school it hurt.
Had any of them failed, the players had no shortage of other ways to get the Ruby. I hadn’t planned anything, just sat back and let the players brainstorm; the Skill Challenge mechanism put them on the spot. I’ve just added one House Rule to the mix – if a player says he’s not doing anything, that counts as one failure. You’re a part of the solution, or you’re a part of the reason why the solution didn’t work.
Unlike 3e D&D, 4e is more about what “feels” right than it is about mathematical accuracy. I remember ENWorld reviews where the poster would run off reams of errata where the math was wrong in a statblock. That’s just sucking the fun out of the game. 4e puts fun first, and the numbers are just there to back up the fun, just as it should be. I can make a monster who’s a 3rd level soldier-type, but make him how the heck I want. The rules give me the guidelines, and nothing more.
I like that. It’s old school.
It hearkens back to playing Red Book D&D where I’m winging it and describe a huge Ogre, deciding on the spot that he’s got 9 Hit Dice and bad breath. In 4e, I can make that 9 Hit Dice Ogre again, on the fly, and wing it once more (Ogre Savage, MM 199, add two levels means +2 to attacks, saves and AC, +1 to damage and 20 more HP. Done).
4e D&D isn’t perfect. I’m still not a fan of the PHB’s layout, wish that Rituals weren’t such an afterthought and that Wizards’ put decent indexes in their books, but these are all things that have either been solved by the fans or Wizards’ themselves by now. What we’ve got is a system that’s…. well, it’s the best darned version of D&D since 1989. That’s old school enough for me.
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about 7 months ago
4E doesn’t even succeed at being D&D, let alone an oldschool version of it.
about 7 months ago
@Grackle Read this!
about 4 months ago
Judging by this post, at the time you wrote it you deeply misunderstood what “old school” gaming was about. You say, “They’re all about generating characters who’s main aim in life is to kill creatures and take their stuff. That’s old school at the core, right there.” Though that has been bandied about as the core of “old school” gaming, a study of what was actually done in the 1970s among gamers shows that it is not so, not by a long shot. “Old school” gaming can be better understood as a process of exploration – the oldest rules discouraged killing things in favor of circumventing them. One got so many more experience (or victory, to use an old school wargaming term) points for taking treasure than for killing things, and the risks (especially at low levels, where one might even have no chance of surviving a single successful hit by even the weakest creature) of trying to kill things were so great that it is very apparent that the goal was to avoid things and take their stuff. This alone renders the rest of your argument about 4E being “old school” moot, but there’s more.
Another feature of “old school” play could be described as “player skill, not character skill”. This is the principle that actions need to be described in detail, not deferred to an abstract “skill roll” or, as you note it is called in 4E, “skill challenge”. If one is searching a room, then one describes where the character is searching and how, one doesn’t just roll a Spot Check or whatever. The dominance of “skill challenges” in 4E is another way in which it is not at all “old school”. Similarly, “old school” games include no detailed, lengthy combat systems with “attacks of opportunity” and similar detailed, rigid methdologies for resolving combats. In “old school” play, the players are encouraged to try unusual tactics, but those tactics are not enumerated, and so limited, in the rules. They are the province of rulings by the referee. This, I realize, is a fairly alien concept to modern gamers, who have grown up with games that have been increasingly reliant on enumerating ever-larger numbers of special cases in the rules themselves, but that’s how we played back so many years ago.
I could go on, but I think that these simple distinctions are enough. 4E may have many virtues, but it is not, in any sense, “old school”. It is very much a product of a much newer gaming aesthetic.
about 4 months ago
Oh my. Where do I start? :D
You’re right – 4e is a product of a newer gaming aesthetic, but it is one born from old school methods and sensibilities, especially as compared to Third Edition. As I said, it is an evolution, and it draws much inspiration from purer, old school times.
Considering I began gaming in 1978, you can take any “study” which says I’m wrong and (putting it politely) shove it. In Classic D&D, the hero was rewarded primarily (but not solely) for two things: killing things (for which they gained XP) and taking stuff (for which they gained XP – one 1gp = 1xp). That’s not to say they the heroes were mindless killing things at a frag party – far from it . You’re right in that exploration was a key part of the game but it’s a (highly enjoyable) means to an end. In some editions of D&D you gained XP for each mile travelled, but that’s an incidental reward in most games at best. Once you arrived at the Dungeon, the heroes generally had one job, and one job only.
I’m not sure about the oldest editions actually discouraging combat given that they were spawned from a wargame, but cunning play which circumvented a threat was certainly rewarded, especially at lower levels where hit points are a precious commodity. The emphasis however was, and always has been, on battling monsters whether deep underground or in the wilderness.
This is a moot point because exactly the same thing applies in Fourth Edition. Have you actually read the 4e Dungeon Masters Guide? XP is rewarded for many things including defeating (not necessarily slaying) monsters, completing major and minor quests, defeating challenges and great role-playing. All of these are elements you’ll find in an old school game.
Skill Clhallenges are, imho, a sadly underused element in 4e. Done right and they perfectly mimic the old-school way of tackling a puzzle or problem, but with a solid framework to support it. Don’t believe me? A suggest you read this where I put my players through an old school Skill Challenge. Heck, why not read the entire series.
Then come back and tell me if you still think I’m wrong :D
about 4 months ago
Here’s what I say about “Old School Gaming.”
Gaming old school, for me, meant:
*getting together with some friends
*making some characters and putting them on a sheet.
*sitting around a table with said friends
*the table had maps, dice, chips and soda
*said dice were of different shapes and got thrown around a lot.
*monsters were killed, fair ladies were saved, treasure was found, and sometimes characters fell
*those that lived grew stronger
*a make-believe story was told, with us as the heroes
*we went home at the end of the night, waiting to come back.
*we talked about the game at school or work (powers, rules, classes, races)
*and we moved onto other games when it was time.
Hmm, that’s pretty much old school for me.
-Tourq
Tourq´s last blog ..Special Thanks
about 4 months ago
Trying to convince someone that 4e is old school, or even legitimately is heir to D&D isn’t really my fight. In this fight, there isn’t any real clear winners or losers. Not when 30 years of our gaming heritage is held hostage by WotC itself.
Quite frankly, I think fighting amongst ourselves over which D&D is D&D is meaningless to me. I really think we need to regain our heritage as a group than fight over which D&D has D&D. At this point, I think we should pick our fights wisely. I’m publishing Galatea with Pathfinder Rules and with a CC license not because I hate or love 4e. I’m doing it in spite of Copyright itself. We all use machines that make it meaningless everyday. The edition wars isn’t our fight, or how or what we decide what edition is “our” D&D. That particular choice is personal as far as I am concerned.
Greywulf, you just stated your *opinion* over which D&D is D&D to you. That’s fine. Doesn’t affect my opinion of the game. What matters to me is when and how our Content Industry is going to wake up and understand that the publishing industry has them over a barrel. However, the Internet exists so that there is another alternative and there are a lot of people understanding this. It just takes 1 person, just 1 to stand up to them and enough is enough.
I’m rebelling against the reason why we have this edition war. WotC made a gutsy move — they locked away our gaming heritage all because of all of them felt threatened because a .pdf of Player’s Handbook II leaked out. It’s one that pushed me over the edge. I’m standing up and saying enough is enough.
Thanks to Nina Paley, I have a viable business model. It isn’t perfect, but it will improve. What I’m asking is for some support. I’m making my move. I’m providing content outside of the system making all of you my publisher. :) It’s gutsy, it’s dangerous, and there are people who are decrying it (one guy is stating that its economically unsound). But, it has to be done in our culture.
4e sucks. Not because of the rules, not because of anything else; but because Wizards of the Coast has managed to put a censorship lock on the game. There are far fewer 3rd Party Publishers of 4e than for 3e or Pathfinder (although, if I’m wrong, Greywulf you have the right to correct me. :) ).
Although this is the era of indie RPGs again, I don’t see any new indie RPGs cropping up. And I certainly don’t know what the sales are of GURPS or other long time indie RPGs. It’s time to admit it, it’s a good thing to copy; and ten years ago we had seen a new golden age of gaming. Now, 30 years of our heritage is locked away.
It’s time to make a stand. 4e sucks. Lets make it so that 4e doesn’t have to suck.
about 4 months ago
I would exactly say it’s “held hostage”. Like it or not, the GSL is still much better than not having a commercial license to use their material at all – which is the state of play with pretty much any non d20 game out there. Try to publish a third party handbook for Warhammer (for example) and see how far you get before the lawyers come knocking.
Wizards dropped the OGL for Fourth Edition because it was being abused. Plain and simple – it’s not their fault, but ours. When so-called publishers simply rebundle the System Reference Documents and sell it without adding an iota of new creativity into the mix, and we the consumers are stupid enough to buy them, we’ve only got ourselves to blame.
The thing is that they didn’t revoke the OGL at all (not, I suspect, that they could due to its wording). The Third Edition System Reference Document is still there, and you’re free thanks to Wizards of the Coast to use it in any way you can. They have moved on, but have given Third Edition as a gift to us all. They should be praised for giving us a lasting legacy, not decried.
I’m not condoning the GSL – far from it. Imho the game industry was a much stronger one with the latest edition of D&D being available as an open document for all to use. But I can understand and respect Wizards’ motivations and where they came from.
Maybe you should too.
Oh, and 4e doesn’t suck :D