Comments on AreYouStillProudAmerica: Agreed.

The way I figure it, every nation throughout time has used torture to gain information during times of crisis or war. Nowadays it’s abhorred and denied, but it’s still used. when the media is escorted away and the citizen groups are focusing elsewhere the men and women of the various intelligence services do what they need to to get the job done. from the US to China, to Germany to England, every country has used torture. Every country does it, every country denies it. So yes I can still be proud to be an American, as much as a German can be proud to be a German, or a Russian can be proud to be a Russian. It’s very easy to assume 21st century sensibilities and take the morale high ground, but any student of history will tell you that torture, no matter how abhorrent, is a fact of of life. And they will also tell you that just about every government has denied doing it. And they are all lying.

The evil dm 2008-04-02 13:05 UTC


True.

The problem is that America went to war in Iraq claiming to have the moral high ground. They vaunted themselves as a “force for good” against the tyranny of an evil regime, then promptly authorised and advocated the very things they were fighting against. It’s beyond hyporisy to claim to fight against evil by doing evil yourself.

It’s not ok to say torture is acceptable because other people do it. It’s not ok to ignore international treaties just because El Presidente says’ it’s alright to do so, and it’s not acceptable to still continue to act like the good guys when it’s so blatantly obvious it’s just not true.

There were war trials after World War II for a reason. Germany had to face up to the actions of it’s leaders, and accept thay they allowed it to happen in their name.

I just wonder whether America will ever be able to do the same.

GreyWulf 2008-04-02 14:04 UTC


“There were war trials after World War II for a reason. Germany had to face up to the actions of it’s leaders, and accept thay they allowed it to happen in their name.

I just wonder whether America will ever be able to do the same.”

If we somehow lose the war then yes, there will be an accounting. If we win or manage extricate ourselves, then it will be brushed over-“we did what we needed to do at the time”- would probably be the line used, or something similar.

I think right after 9/11 we as a nation were like a father whose child was just murdered. we mourned heavily and we wanted blood, we wanted anyone who had anything ever so slightly to do with this. and Saddam did not have the good sense to shut up and sit down till we came to our senses (hell, even Libya kept their mouth shut). we really needed to hit something- he got in our face and he was an asshole anyway, so we lashed out. I’m not excusing what happened, but thats the way my take on why it happened the way it did.

evil dm 2008-04-02 15:34 UTC


I’m sure you’re right :) America wanted blood, and Iraq was a profitable target for Bush & Co. The fact that his ambition/greed has all but bankrupted the US and destroyed two countries is neither here nor there, I guess.

Sad to say, I don’t think there are any winners in this war.

Only losers.

GreyWulf 2008-04-02 16:00 UTC


Agreed.

evil dm 2008-04-02 16:03 UTC

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